E-mail David Christopher Lane
directly at dlane@weber.ucsd.edu
Author: Venu Publisher: The NEURAL SURFER Publication date: June 1997
E-mail David Christopher Lane
directly at dlane@weber.ucsd.edu
I
want to go back to the home base now.
From venup@melb.convergent.com.au Tue Jun 3 23:20:29 1997
Subject: Re: Bon's reply
Bon Giovanni wrote:
> June 3, 1997
> BonGiovanni@delphi.com
> PO Box 6849
> Beverly Hills CA 90212 USA
>
> Pranams Sri Parthiban-ji,
>
[SNIP,SNIP]
Dear Bon
I hope you will understand if I don't include your letter in my replay,
as it is already on line in Professor Lane web site.
First off let me thank you for your considered reply. I thank you
especially to your efforts in taking the time to reply to all these
intellectual dwarfs like myself who couldn't even begin to understand
the greatness of sai baba. Let me also thank you for the clarity, the
logical interpretation of specifics and the patience with which you put
together your considered replies. I am writing this while watching a
beautiful sunrise in the west.
But most of all let me thank you for this :
>Secondly, I am not a disciple of Sri Sathya Sai Baba.
It must take a great mind to even to consider involving oneself to
replying these rabble rousers, especially, as a non-desciple you have
nothing to gain except upholding the truth. Let me admit, the temptation
to simply press the Delete key would have been to big to resist to a
lesser man.
I commend you for your selfless sacrifice in spending so much time
defending someone with whom (I assume here..) you can but have just a
passing interest. It must be pure struggle for truth to prevail to make
yourself put together around 60 Mb of "Thus spake Sai Baba" in the form
of Sandeha Nivarini in the Usenet news groups.
Bon, I bow to you.
I must also admit my admiration towards the way you have slipped and
slithered around my questions.
First you reject my labelling the points on the Puttaparthi murders as
Facts. I am not a clever man, Bon and my command of the English language
is not very good. I would be lost without my trusty dictionary. When I
consulted my tested and tried Concise Oxford Dictionary (Ninth Edition,
Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1995 ISBN 0-19-861320-2, Edited by Della
Thompson), on page 482 under the listing fact (n): I found this entry: a
thing assumed as the basis of evidence, argument or inference.
So I submit that I am not entirely wrong in my use of the word Fact.
As you may recall from my first correspondence to Professor Lane, I
noted that my interests on sai baba matters are not due any evangelical
zeal on my part. I merely want to know what happened. I don't want to
try and convert or, as I may wish to call, reform sai baba disciples. I
don't care what they do with their life, even if they don't accept as
being a desciple. (Am I assuming things again, Bon? Is a desciple
different from a devotee? Is it a higher level of realisation? Correct
me if I have erred)
I lived in India for the most part of my life. Although I have now
chosen to live elsewhere, I still have a lot of concern about what goes
on in the name of religion and politics in my birth place. I do believe
that I have a right to have such a concern. As I mentioned in my first
letter, I am worried about the future of my country if the government
and the judiciary can be influenced by anybody to cover up evil deeds.
In answer to my questions about the murders, you ask about specifics,
about how and where the corpses were found, the date and time, how many
bullets each corpse contained, etc., etc.
Of course I don't have all these specifics. I also don't know exactly
what happened. All I know came from my reading of the newspapers and
periodicals that carried the story at that time. I also know that the
story soon faded away from the papers to be replaced by rumours and
innuendoes. This is typical of any society. When the people are not
satisfied about something that involved a high profile personality, they
normally resort to rumours and gossip.
All I ask for is some insight into what really happened that night, who
were those men, why did they try to kill sai baba, how were they armed,
why couldn't the police try and disarm and arrest them, what did they do
to provoke police into shooting them dead.
I know less about these murders than I may know about any everyday
murder that may take place in India. An organization that has such a
wide following is duty bound to providing answers to these. Even you
admit to the fact that such questions have been floating around the
Usenet newsgroups for some time. Have you ever tried to answer these
questions? You could've at least allocated a few measly kbs of the 60
odd Megs of posting to address these so-called rumours.
I don't know of any official line taken by the sai baba organisation
with regard to these murders. If there is any please forward them to me.
I think the event in which four young men were killed inside the sai
baba residence warrents a clearer answer. Frontline magazine published
pictures of these unfortunate men and wrote that at least one of the
men were shot inside sai baba's bed chamber. Sorry Bon I don't know the
month, year, issue number, page number and author name of the article. I
only go by my memory and it is your prerogative to reject my memory
views. But I think, being a non-desciple of sai baba, you should try and
not avoid addressing the thrust of my letter, viz. what really happened
that night.
Your method of addressing questions on matters sai baba seems to
indicate a well trained mind. A mind with a the sharpness to detect a
way to not answer the main point of a correspondence. A mind which can
pour out voluminous text questioning the language, the use of certain
words, and the motive behind the questioning. You then embellish your
answers with ridicule, denigration, and by questioning the intellect of
the correspondent. (Not to forget the pedantic carping for irrational
specifics) You then try and drive away people like me with a generous
spray of sai baba quotes. Well, this won't work. I have trained myself
to switch of my mind whenever I see preaching.
You must try answering some of the questions some time Bon. At least
tell us to go to hell and not bother you, instead of trying desperately
to defend someone on behalf of the desciples, being a non desciple
yourself.
Have you ever tried becoming a talk radio host Bon? You could
out-limbagh Rush! And you will have millions of ditto-heads to listen to
whatever you say!
Please answer the following questions:
o Did some murders take place at Puttaparthy some years ago?
o Who were murdered?
o How were they armed?
o What is know about their motives?
o Why didn't the police try and disarm and arrest them?
o Why were they summarily executed? Did they try to kill either sai
baba, or the police or both?
o Why is that there is no clear information available on this matter.
I don't have to tell you Bon, but the easy answer for all these
questions is "I don't know". But I know you are a better man than that.
You will also notice that I haven't in any of my letters alleged any
misdeeds on the part of sai baba in any of these.
Let me next turn to your comments about changing people's minds: You say
and I quote:
Finally, it is my experience that Swami has never, repeat
never, used any power but his love in order to effect any
change in anyone's intent. That you imply he *should* have
used some other power, be it psychic or supernatural or
political, to `change the intent' of any other human being,
suggests you believe in wilful interference in other's
minds. I urge you to examine that, since it suggests you
want power over others. At any rate, Swami never has done
any such thing. I rather like that about him.
Good on you Bon.
Let me consider you first point about sai baba never changes anyone's
intent except out of love. What could be more nobel in changing the
intent four misguided young men in the prime of their lives to path of
love instead of even being remotely responsible for their demise?
Forgive me for being so brief, but time is precious and I want to move
on to other questions.
You ask me when did any of sai baba's activities get any publicity? I
don't know Bon, but to my feeble mind his magical performances during
the darshan time amount to publicity. Even you must agree that such
trick do convince some intellectually challenged desciple (devotee?)
into believing that he (sai baba) is divine and thence becoming a devote
believer . Not that there is anything wrong with that, but that amounts
to some sort of publicity. Publicising need not only be done from a PR
organisation you know, there are a number of other subtle ways, as you
are so aware.
You compare this ritual to a family dining in private. Great comparison.
Don't we all dine in public in restaurants, at public functions, during
weddings, funerals, etc.?
But seriously, am I wrong in believing that a realised being should be
impartial to all his desciples? Why would a realised being confer this
great honour to a select few and then only to young boys? If it is a
minor matter of miraculous anointing a favoured desciple, why does this
miracle not gets any public performance as his materialising does?
Thanks for putting me straight on the matter of female anatomy Bon. I
didn't know girls don't have scrotums. Well, you learn something new
everyday.
So it's only boys he can anoint can he?
Recently a catholic priest was arrested and put in the slammer here for
many years in Australia for similarly anointing many young boys. I guess
he was just plain unlucky to have practised his trade in such a barbaric
country.
You also guess that this anointment "...literally affects future human
beings arising
from that anointed sperm sac..." Good guess. It is for generating some
super humans with great mystical powers.
Shouldn't these super babies also have the opportunity to nurse on
breasts similarly anointed? May be sai baba should start anointing young
girls' breasts so as to pass on his mystical powers to the future super
humans.
You also answer "Yes" to my question on whether sai baba has ever
written or spoken anything about these rituals. Could you please post
them on-line so that doubters like us can get some enlightenment
I will address your hypocrisy in demanding specifics from others while
producing none in your assertions of some of sai baba's alleged divinity
in a latter correspondence.
Thanks
Venu Parthiban.
--------------63FC57074E1FE44FDEDFB10C
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Bon Giovanni wrote:
June 3, 1997
BonGiovanni@delphi.com
PO Box 6849
Beverly Hills CA 90212 USA
Pranams Sri Parthiban-ji,
[SNIP,SNIP]
Dear Bon
I hope you will understand if I don't include your letter in my replay,
as it is already on line in Professor Lane web site.
First off let me thank you for your considered reply. I thank you especially
to your efforts in taking the time to reply to all these intellectual dwarfs
like myself who couldn't even begin to understand the greatness of sai
baba. Let me also thank you for the clarity, the logical interpretation
of specifics and the patience with which you put together your considered
replies. I am writing this while watching a beautiful sunrise in the west.
But most of all let me thank you for this :
>Secondly, I am not a disciple of Sri Sathya Sai Baba.
It must take a great mind to even to consider involving oneself to replying
these rabble rousers, especially, as a non-desciple you have nothing to
gain except upholding the truth. Let me admit, the temptation to simply
press the Delete key would have been to big to resist to a lesser man.
I commend you for your selfless sacrifice in spending so much time defending
someone with whom (I assume here..) you can but have just a passing interest.
It must be pure struggle for truth to prevail to make yourself put together
around 60 Mb of "Thus spake Sai Baba" in the form of Sandeha Nivarini
in the Usenet news groups.
Bon, I bow to you.
I must also admit my admiration towards the way you have slipped and
slithered around my questions.
First you reject my labelling the points on the Puttaparthi murders
as Facts. I am not a clever man, Bon and my command of the English language
is not very good. I would be lost without my trusty dictionary. When I
consulted my tested and tried Concise Oxford Dictionary (Ninth Edition,
Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1995 ISBN 0-19-861320-2, Edited by Della
Thompson), on page 482 under the listing fact (n): I found this
entry: a thing assumed as the basis of evidence, argument or inference.
So I submit that I am not entirely wrong in my use of the word Fact.
As you may recall from my first correspondence to Professor Lane, I
noted that my interests on sai baba matters are not due any evangelical
zeal on my part. I merely want to know what happened. I don't want to try
and convert or, as I may wish to call, reform sai baba disciples. I don't
care what they do with their life, even if they don't accept as being a
desciple. (Am I assuming things again, Bon? Is a desciple different from
a devotee? Is it a higher level of realisation? Correct me if I have erred)
I lived in India for the most part of my life. Although I have now chosen
to live elsewhere, I still have a lot of concern about what goes on in
the name of religion and politics in my birth place. I do believe that
I have a right to have such a concern. As I mentioned in my first letter,
I am worried about the future of my country if the government and the judiciary
can be influenced by anybody to cover up evil deeds.
In answer to my questions about the murders, you ask about specifics,
about how and where the corpses were found, the date and time, how many
bullets each corpse contained, etc., etc.
Of course I don't have all these specifics. I also don't know exactly
what happened. All I know came from my reading of the newspapers and periodicals
that carried the story at that time. I also know that the story soon faded
away from the papers to be replaced by rumours and innuendoes. This is
typical of any society. When the people are not satisfied about something
that involved a high profile personality, they normally resort to rumours
and gossip.
All I ask for is some insight into what really happened that night,
who were those men, why did they try to kill sai baba, how were they armed,
why couldn't the police try and disarm and arrest them, what did they do
to provoke police into shooting them dead.
I know less about these murders than I may know about any everyday murder
that may take place in India. An organization that has such a wide following
is duty bound to providing answers to these. Even you admit to the fact
that such questions have been floating around the Usenet newsgroups for
some time. Have you ever tried to answer these questions? You could've
at least allocated a few measly kbs of the 60 odd Megs of posting to address
these so-called rumours.
I don't know of any official line taken by the sai baba organisation
with regard to these murders. If there is any please forward them to me.
I think the event in which four young men were killed inside the sai baba
residence warrents a clearer answer. Frontline magazine published pictures
of these unfortunate men and wrote that at least one of the men were
shot inside sai baba's bed chamber. Sorry Bon I don't know the month, year,
issue number, page number and author name of the article. I only go by
my memory and it is your prerogative to reject my memory views. But I think,
being a non-desciple of sai baba, you should try and not avoid addressing
the thrust of my letter, viz. what really happened that night.
Your method of addressing questions on matters sai baba seems to indicate
a well trained mind. A mind with a the sharpness to detect a way to not
answer the main point of a correspondence. A mind which can pour out voluminous
text questioning the language, the use of certain words, and the motive
behind the questioning. You then embellish your answers with ridicule,
denigration, and by questioning the intellect of the correspondent. (Not
to forget the pedantic carping for irrational specifics) You then
try and drive away people like me with a generous spray of sai baba quotes.
Well, this won't work. I have trained myself to switch of my mind whenever
I see preaching.
You must try answering some of the questions some time Bon. At least
tell us to go to hell and not bother you, instead of trying desperately
to defend someone on behalf of the desciples, being a non desciple yourself.
Have you ever tried becoming a talk radio host Bon? You could out-limbagh
Rush! And you will have millions of ditto-heads to listen to whatever you
say!
Please answer the following questions:
o Did some murders take place at Puttaparthy some years ago?
o Who were murdered?
o How were they armed?
o What is know about their motives?
o Why didn't the police try and disarm and arrest them?
o Why were they summarily executed? Did they try to kill either sai
baba, or the police or both?
o Why is that there is no clear information available on this matter.
I don't have to tell you Bon, but the easy answer for all these questions
is "I don't know". But I know you are a better man than that. You
will also notice that I haven't in any of my letters alleged any misdeeds
on the part of sai baba in any of these.
Let me next turn to your comments about changing people's minds: You
say and I quote:
Let me consider you first point about sai baba never changes anyone's intent except out of love. What could be more nobel in changing the intent four misguided young men in the prime of their lives to path of love instead of even being remotely responsible for their demise?
Forgive me for being so brief, but time is precious and I want to move on to other questions.
You ask me when did any of sai baba's activities get any publicity? I don't know Bon, but to my feeble mind his magical performances during the darshan time amount to publicity. Even you must agree that such trick do convince some intellectually challenged desciple (devotee?) into believing that he (sai baba) is divine and thence becoming a devote believer . Not that there is anything wrong with that, but that amounts to some sort of publicity. Publicising need not only be done from a PR organisation you know, there are a number of other subtle ways, as you are so aware.
You compare this ritual to a family dining in private. Great comparison. Don't we all dine in public in restaurants, at public functions, during weddings, funerals, etc.?
But seriously, am I wrong in believing that a realised being should be impartial to all his desciples? Why would a realised being confer this great honour to a select few and then only to young boys? If it is a minor matter of miraculous anointing a favoured desciple, why does this miracle not gets any public performance as his materialising does?
Thanks for putting me straight on the matter of female anatomy Bon. I didn't know girls don't have scrotums. Well, you learn something new everyday.
So it's only boys he can anoint can he?
Recently a catholic priest was arrested and put in the slammer here for many years in Australia for similarly anointing many young boys. I guess he was just plain unlucky to have practised his trade in such a barbaric country.
You also guess that this anointment "...literally affects
future human beings arising
from that anointed sperm sac..." Good guess. It is for generating some
super humans with great mystical powers.
Shouldn't these super babies also have the opportunity to nurse on breasts similarly anointed? May be sai baba should start anointing young girls' breasts so as to pass on his mystical powers to the future super humans.
You also answer "Yes" to my question on whether sai baba has ever written or spoken anything about these rituals. Could you please post them on-line so that doubters like us can get some enlightenment
I will address your hypocrisy in demanding specifics from others while
producing none in your assertions of some of sai baba's alleged divinity
in a latter correspondence.
Thanks
Venu Parthiban.
E-mail The Neural Surfer directly
at dlane@weber.ucsd.edu
I want to go back to the home base now.
