Author: Said Publisher: The NEURAL SURFER Publication date: June 1997
E-mail David Christopher Lane directly at firstname.lastname@example.org
I want to go back to the home base now.
From: Said Khorramshahgol
To: "'email@example.com'" Subject: Response to Bon Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:39:58 -0700 Hello Professor Lane, the following is another response to Bon's = response to my first posting. Regards, Afshin. As to not confuse the readers between Bon's writings and my own, Bon's = writings will be inside double parenthesis. =20 ((These can manifest as suffering, especially when addressing = specifics. That may explain why the fellows offer but few specifics, = then usually embroider the facts with hyperbole, resulting in their = frequent assumptions.)) I would like everyone to see what I have based my based my opinion of = Raju - aka Sai Baba, his last name - so that they can choose if they are = facts or assumptions as Bon claims. They are the following: 1. I have seen three movies with some very clear, close shots of Baba = cheating on "materializations" of "holy" ash, a necklace, and either = another necklace or a rings, I don't remember which one. 2. I have had Raju touch my testicle some five or six times. He has = hugged me while touching me. He has breathed hard and made sexual = noises. So, I have concluded that he was touching me in a sexual way. 3. Raju has directed me to touch his testicle by taking my hand and = rubbing it against his testicle. Further, he made loud sexual noises. = So, I have come to the conclusion that he was sexually aroused and = enjoying it. I would like Bon to answer the following: 1. If Raju was healing something in my testicle, why did he hug me? Why = did he have to hug me to do so? 2. If Raju was healing something in my testicle, why did he make sexual = noises? 3. If Raju was healing something in my testicle, why did he breathe = harder? 4. Why did Raju have me touch his testicle?=20 5. If Raju was trying to perhaps teach me something or whatever other = answer you have come up with, why did Raju make sexual noises while he = directed me to touch him? 6. Can you point out what assumptions I have made? 7. Can you point out how I have embroidered the facts with hyperbole? ((Those who have met Sai may however differ or agree with Said or with = me, but surely those who at least read Sai's teachings, = instead of only the comments by men like me or Said, might recall that = Swami again and again advises folks to build their lives and their = faiths NOT ON HIS PERSON, >NOT ON STORIES ABOUT HIM, GOOD OR = BAD, but rather on their own experience, and to use that resulting = basis of direct experience to develop keen attention, and with that to = develop unbiased insight.)) It might not be wise to listen to others views at times, but you can't = generalize and say you should never listen to other's views regarding = someone else. So, Raju, the all knowing, is wrong when it comes to this = point. You are thinking based on your faith in Raju. You have accepted = that he is God and you are thinking that each person has a different = experience and belief regarding Raju, a belief which is strong within = Raju's followers. So, as a result you are saying no one should judge = Raju based on anyone else's experiences solely based on your belief that = he is God and his teachings are the Truth. But to me and to a major = majority of people he is just a human being and not what you think he = is. We, as logical human beings can listen to other people's = experiences regarding Raju. To everyone who is not a Raju follower, it = becomes more clear that Raju is a homosexual and a charlatan if two = people have the same experiences with him. Try all you want to convince = them to forget our experiences, but we, they won't be able to forget = about similar accusations of sexual abuse, specially if they have kids. = I just wanted to give you a report of how we think down here. = Apparently you are too high and your mind too twisted and you need us to = clear how logical thinking can be. And also, doesn't Raju say that the character of the guru is important. = I have read his teachings regarding the characteristics of a guru. He = mentions many things about recognizing the qualities of the character of = the guru. So, why does Raju and you not want others to examine the = character of Raju? I will tell everyone why you and Raju want people to = go there and see Raju up close. It is about Raju wanting people to be = mesmerized with the idea of seeing miracles and seeing the source of = these miracles and wanting to talk to him, etc. In the next few = pragraphs I will explain how a person feels and why they feel that way = when they go to see Raju the first time.=20 ((That [experiencing Raju first hand] is the basis for sadhana, or = spiritual discipline. Experience like that you see does example how = understanding itself is best realized while *living* a teaching, not = dwelling in imaginary states or assumed relationships as a = >href=3D"http://people.delphi.com/bongiovanni/ss10a.htm"> Said = examples.)) Bon, there are two kinds of experiences, inner and outer. The outer is = also important, even in cases such as studying Raju. Outer experiences = can be even good for your spirituality, don't you agree? It can even = save you from fraud teachers who can ruin your life, don't you agree? I = am sure you agree, and so how can you ask non-devotees to go and see = Raju without considering my side of the story? If I am right about = Raju, then their lives are ruined, agree? I am sure you agree, so how = can you make such a suggestion? I know how you make a suggestion like = that, you are high and your mind is twisted, you don't think logically = as we do down here. You base your reasoning on your faith. You think = that what Raju says is the Truth and most beneficial - as Raju devotees = believe. So, your logical mind which would tell you "what if I am wrong = and Raju is a fake" does not function. All your reasoning is shadowed = by your faith, I am not saying you don't have reasoning. Reasoning is a = sequence of if...then...else statements. But your if statement starts = with the supposition that Raju is God. Can you undrestand? I would like to tell everyone how one feels when one goes to see Raju = for the first time and why you feel as such. Imagine being told that = someone has many millions of follower, he has risen the dead, many = times, he can read your mind, tell of your past, your future, AND HE = PERFORMS MIRACLES DAILY by creating holy ash, which is supposed to heal = the sick and help those in need. Wouldn't your mind boggle over that? = Even if you are very skeptical at first, after hearing about his many = miracles for a while or hearing them from a couple of people, you might = agree to check it out for yourself. You have also been told that this = person not only claims to be God, he also claims that you are God. The = effect this kind of statement has is shown by the following: When he says you are also God in order to calm your mind over his claim = to be God; the claim that you are also God, also makes you feel like = there must be something I don't understand about his philosophy, how can = he and I be God? So, you leave it alone for the time being. So you go to see Raju. You are very excited because this person is = supposed to be a very special person indeed - the great miracles that = you have been told comes to your mind. This is apparent in many books = about "experiences" of people when they met Raju for the first time. I = have read many stories where the people are thinking about so many = different things while they are going to see him. You get excited and = you can't help it. This kind of excitement can be very soothing just = like a spiritual experience and ecstasy. Also, you are very excited = because you are waiting for that very first time that you will see a = miracle. This is also evident in "experiences" of people who went to = see Raju for the first time. Many write about looking for that first = miracle. So your mind is boggling over the prospects of perhaps meeting = a holy person who can do great miracles. Another thing is that on the = first trip, if not everyone, a major majority of people want Raju to = notice them and be so very kind to them. These people could be pure = skeptics, but they feel that way anyhow. So, you also want a great deal = of attention from Raju. You go there, and Raju doesn't pay any = attention to you for a while. This is also what many devotees have = claimed or written in their books. After a week or two of waiting for = Raju to notice you, you are becoming very upset and at the same time = more excited. After living within thousands of devotees and constantly = being told of Raju's miracles, you are getting very excited - after all = it could be true that he is doing miracles, that he is God - and you = want him to notice you more. Another thing that could be nice is for = you to talk to Raju face to face, which is only possible in an = interview. You ask for it and you want it so bad. And finally, one day = Baba looks at you or starts to notice you or talks to you. You feel = like you are in heaven. Truly, you feel in a kind of spiritual ecstasy. = You know why because anytime, anyone wants something so bad and they = get it, they get very happy. In your situation, while the thought that = Raju might be God is in the back of your head-and most probably it has = strengthened after two weeks of waiting and conversing with Raju = devotees --, this feeling of happiness gets a kind of spirituality in = your high. You will say and I have "WOW, this person who might be = God-and whom I wanted so much to notice me-has finally noticed me!" If = you observe your emotions and thoughts while you are there then you will = see it for yourself. Unfortunately, the high and the ever increasing = and intensifying idea that Raju might be God and the fact that we really = would love to see God face to face makes it hard to face our real = emotions and makes it hard to think about it logically. Wouldn't it be = great to see God face to face - specially after you have been there for = two weeks and the idea that he might be God is getting stronger day by = day? This is the feeling that Bon wants you to get. I, as a devotee, = used to tell everyone that to see Raju is to love Raju, for this very = reason. All Raju devotees think that way, because we used to talk about = the first meetings with Baba, the first time he looked at us, etc. Bon = is a pervert, he doesn't want you to go there to examine Raju, he wants = you to go there and get high and illogical. I am sure Jed would agree = with me on this. Bon is a liar. So now you know Bon's intentions and = his personality. Every Raju devotee believes that their first visit to = Raju is their best. That is because the first time they go there, they = want to see miracles and Raju palys mind games with them by not paying = attention to them for a while, etc. All that I have said above applies = to the first trip. The next trips become more normal. In the second = and consequent trips you feels very high for the first week - after all = you are going to see your God, someone you are dedicating your life to, = and someone whom you love - and then wears off. ((However, those who wish to examine Sai for character flaws may = certainly do so if they find that beneficial, but surely might do well = then to at least go and see him directly, so as to fully examine their = day to day lives and his day to day life, both in outer appearance as = well as in regard to his teaching, to see if that has value or not.)) My reasons why you feel the way you do when you go to see Raju explains = why Bon is asking everyone to go and see Baba without trying to examine = Raju for character flaws. Bon wants everyone to go there and get high = and not deal with Raju's character. Isn't it better to also test the = character of someone who says he is God? Shouldn't that be the first = step in your research on Raju and his claim to be God? I would = appreciate it if someone else, a third party could respond to this = question.=20 ((Instead, if they do as Said suggests, if one instead pays attention = to stories, or to movies, or to hearsay or imaginings, as he himself = brags that he has done, one gets no actual experience, no = understanding, and no insight. Rather one gets what Said has: = 'opinion' which is frankly more bias than anything else, but = opinion which masks itself as if "objective fact".)) Well, your opinions are facts, but mine have no ground, they are just = opinions, right? Your logic there is as twisted as it has been = throughout this reply. Also, Bon's problem here is that he puts too much emphasis on the plays = of his mind. Within the Raju devotees, it is very popular to "get = within" and experience things within. All the "bad" emotions are = destroyed, all "good" emotions are placed there, if possible, all = thoughts and emotions are not only watched but are directed, so instead = of letting your thoughts and emotions to come out, you suppress all = thoughts and emotions and only try to have "good" emotions and thoughts. = In this process, you have to deal with so many difficulties and you = gain experience as to how to control your thoughts and emotions, if you = are strong enough. This can be seen as spiritual to those who follow = that path. And these are the experiences which Bon speaks of. When I = first became a Raju follower, I used to read and hear of getting within, = after a while, I was so involved with controlling my thoughts and = emotions, I was constantly, by the second, by the thought watched and = tried to control my thoughts and emotions. Before I knew it, I was only = aware of my thoughts and emotions, I had gone within. But suppressing = all thoughts and emotions is not true spirituality. It will just make = all the suppressed thoughts stronger and they keep coming back. True = spirituality is supposed to be constant, not fighting all thoughts. So, = Bon is living within himself fighting emotions and thoughts and he feels = good for overcoming some - although they come back later - and he feels = bad for losing. For him this is a reality and a spiritual path of = "cleansing". All else is non reality, the outside world is non-reality = as they have been told by Raju. So, movies that show Raju cheat are not = important, what is important is that they are fanatically trying to = fight their thoughts and emotions and that is important and that is = reality. It is hard for me to explain it to you. Unless you have lived = this kind of life, you wouldn't understand. I tried my best to explain = it to all and show where Bon is coming from. I welcome all those who = have lived this kind of life and understand, to respond. (( .... I have based my views only on my own experience and study, not = on guesses, stories, movies, or hearsay.)) Can you please share some of these experiences with us. Ever since the = first time I talked to you, you keep telling me and everyone else that = your faith comes from inner experiences and that nothing else matters. = Please share some of your experiences with us so that perhaps some of us = will be able to benefit from them. If your experiences are strong = enough to keep you a devotee after semi-accepting that Raju cheats on = his miracles, then it must be strong enough to at least change someone = else's mind. If you can save one person's life by taking them to Raju, = then your life has been worthwhile, so please share your experiences = with us. ((That means for him it was a cult, but it is my direct experience that = there is nothing "real" about Said's claims, nothing cultlike in Sai's = organization-even though there may certainly be cult-followers like = Said around, as there are in any large spiritual organization.)) Why should people believe you that Raju's organization is not a cult? = You haven't given them any proof. I have at least told them of my = "opinion", or "imaginations" as you call them, namely three movies which = they can watch. What have you given as proof that Raju is not a cult = master? All you have said is my experiences are that he is God and you = expect all to believe that first of all you are saying the truth and = second of all your experiences are not a play of your imaginations. = Give proof Bon and stop telling us we have opinions and imaginations = until you yourself give some proof. ((However, one may of course deduce based on hearsay and appearances, = instead of direct observation and experience. Frankly I think Said = examples that rather clearly, and so hope you will use his example to = avoid such calamity.)) Bon, I was a devotee of Raju for three years and I had seven interviews = and many private ones both with my group and Raju, with me and Raju and = also, once he called me in with another group of people for a private = interview. I have had many direct observations and experience. More = than you have. I just remembered something. Once even Raju kissed me = on the cheek while he was hugging me, has he done that to you? Has he = ever played with your dick? Has he ever hugged you? He hugged me at = least 5 times. As you see, I have had experiences and I found out that = under the cake, there was a large pile of shit in the bucket, which = examplifies what people will find in Raju. And you are right, I hope = that people will take my example to avoid such calamity, I really hope = so. =20 ((Do you think Swami is only what Said, or I, (or Lane, or you) think = him to be? )) Your opinion above is nothing but twisted thinking based on faith. As = an ex-Raju devotee I know what you are thinking. It is the belief of = Raju followers that Raju is beyond all people's comprehension and so Bon = says "Do you think _____ is only what Said, or I, (or Lane, or you) = think him to be?" It is their belief that no one can understand Raju's = reality since a finite mind cannot understand the infinite. They also = believe that Raju and his actions are a mystery to all as is written in = a book by Hislop, a devotee of Raju. So, if Raju's personality and his = actions are a mystery, why should we go and see him since you, who have = been with Raju for twenty or more years believe that he is a mystery? =20 Here I am going to explain to all as to why Raju followers find him a = mystery. For example, Raju tells a devotee something. The devotee = starts thinking why did Raju tell me this? Could it be that he loves = me? Could it be that he saw something in me and he wants to change it? = Could it be that he saw something in my future which is threatening to = my life? As a devotee of Raju I used to think this was and so did my = Raju friends. We used to talk about this sometimes. So, with all these = questions, Raju's intentions remain a mystery as he also stays a = mystery. Also, this kind of thinking made me feel that Baba might be = killing a bird with one stone. Could there be more than one answer to = the above questions? If so, then Raju is operating in many different = levels as is also believed by Raju followers. So, as you see, this kind = of faith is all based on their ignorace. If Bon disagrees, let him give = at least two instances of his experiences which proved to him that Raju = operates on different levels. ))Students who persevere do find that one way Swami teaches is to = bring doubts *forward*, INTO EXPERIENCE, so they can be examined. = Bringing doubts to light is part of his job as a TEACHER, as even Jed = and Said example, albeit grudgingly. Why Jed and Said chose to not = examine their doubts so much as to instead apparently deduce instead Sai = was at fault, is what Lane's page serves to focus on, if one wishes. Of = course David's page also offers the chance to mindlessly gloat over = gossip, if one wishes that. )) You are suggesting that after seeing three movies that expose Raju's = "miracles" as frauds, and after being molested by him, I should have = fought all doubts and held on to faith? Isn't that what the followers = of the raping guru did? So, since they fought their doubts and found = the "truth" about why their guru raped those women - they came to = believe that the guru who had no sexual desires or feelings, was out to = release the sexual energy of those women who were suppressing them; this = way they could concentrate on their spiritual exercises - then are you = suggesting that they are more spiritual people now? Also, are you = suggesting that the guru is always pure and we have to se all shit and = overcome doubts? As you see your reasoning works as I have said. It = goes as "Raju is God, then he is pure and couldn't have lied about his = powers, couldn't have molested those kids. His intentions are always = pure. So, these doubts are unfounded and should be destroyed and = replaced by faith." BY KILLING DOUBT, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE Raju A = GOD OR PURE. ((No one charged them any fees or dues, and no one made them go into = interview, or stay, or leave-- yet they blame Sai as if he somehow = tricked them.)) We didn't go to India or interviews on our own accord, we were brain = washed. ((They seem convinced a teacher can act only as they wish, poor fellows. = No wonder then they are furious with Sai Baba, for he fits no mould = whatsoever.)) If Raju doesn't fit the mould of a teacher, a pure person, or God, then = most probably he is not a teacher, a pure person or God!=20 Also, please read my account, explained above, of how Raju's devotees = believe that Raju is a man of mystery and why they think that Raju does = not fit anyone's understanding. It will give you a lot of insight in = Bon's twisted thought patterns as expressed in his above statement. Thanks for your time. Please e-mail me with any info, questions or = suggestions. Thank you. Regards, Afshin.
E-mail The Neural Surfer directly at firstname.lastname@example.org
I want to go back to the home base now.